Edge to Cloud: This isn't Your Father's Tractor

Machine-generated from the episode audio and not hand-corrected, so names and technical terms may be imperfect. The audio is authoritative.

You're listening to the latest episode a pre-recorded panel that we did early July with four of the industry experts around edge computing. We have Joel Peterson of Clarify360. We have Tina Garable of AppGate, Rob Hirshfield of Rackin, Mark Teal of Edgevana, and Independent Analyst Sarbjeet Johil. I hope you enjoy this panel as much as I did talking to the folks. The first question to Joe, Joe, what are some of the business drivers of the edge to begin with? So this all starts with a business conversation.

What are the drivers for edge? Well, thank you for having me first with this great panel of folks. They're fun and funny and smart. But before we do that, I wanted to sort of talk about what I'm seeing from my lens, if I could a second. I think we're oversimplifying by calling something edge here, just like we did years ago when we called it cloud, right? It's really an ecosystem of technologies that we're seeing come forward. It's a platform, and it's the compute, and it's the storage, and it's going to continue to grow and define itself just like cloud did.

So we're sort of right now painting it with a broad brush to encompass all those technologies. And as it matures, we're going to refine it further. I think that what's driving to your question, to answer your question, what's driving the conversation around edge is the customer experience. We want to put data closer to the customer. We want applications to respond faster. When we ship the compute and the storage away from where the data is being gathered and consumed, we add in latency.

So we want applications to perform better, and then ultimately, we want to... I did not... I did not... The only thing I understood was Tractor and Flash. By shipping storage over, it gets more expensive. You've got to increase network costs. You've got to increase storage costs. So those are some of the things that I think, from a technical perspective, are actually driving the edge conversation. Tina, I'm going to throw you this. Sure. What seems like a softball question after we've seen that video, who uses the edge?

Like, who's the customer for the edge? Well, we just saw, you know, what we would call an IoT sort of arrangement. I've been warned by my panelists not to do cloud, excuse me, edge washing. See? So easy to do. I already started cloud washing, right? So I'm going to be very, very specific here. Autonomous vehicles, edge computing, and edge... Really, you want to look at the device doing processing, either locally, either with a device or with a server.

To me, that's a real specific way of looking at edge and not doing edge washing, and it can be done on a server in a data center, or it could be in it that's close by in proximity, as Joe has discussed, processing data that you want to get and have adjacent so there isn't latency. Or it could be simply a device in your home that's smart, that is doing some computing about, you know, something that you need or want or, you know, some sort of basic smart device, if you will.

But it's not just collecting data. I think that for me, and I'm going to challenge my panelists now, is it the computing that sets these edge devices apart from other IoT devices? And I'd like to turn it to Rich now, since he was warning me. Go for it. Or Rob. Excuse me. Or Rob. Like, put my glasses on here, huh, so I see who's next. Tea. You know, I think edge washing is definitely a danger from a marketing perspective, but there are times when you can look at a scenario like what we saw from the tractor, and, you know, it is clearly compute analysis, analytics, and processing happening all on that tractor, right?

That tractor is what we would traditionally say is an edge from that perspective. And I think we can acknowledge that. The thing that I think is funny from an edge washing perspective is I don't think John Deere cares what we call it. They are operating a tractor, right? They might call it IoT, but it's – and this is where it becomes edge washing, right? Yes. From their perspective, they're trying to run a system. And the thing that's funny is that looks like an airline pilot or airplane cockpit from the 70s, right, where it's like, ah, I need airline controls.

Here's a monitor. Here's some controls. Here's a thing. And what we clearly see in this case is, you know, you don't need to call it edge or not. We have a complex machine with a lot of control systems. All those control systems have been, you know, automated to one extent or another, and none of them have been connected together into what IT would think of as an integrated system. And so what we're seeing is real edge infrastructure, but it's all what we were describing, you know, earlier was as operational technology or OT technology, not IT technology.

And so, you know, while what we saw was amazing as far as individual systems, what we saw from an IT perspective was a travesty from, you know, all of these. And now, so what – you know, and just to extend on that, what happens if one of those systems breaks, the whole – she can't, you know, plant the field? Well, I don't – there's clearly no integration there. I mean, we can see that otherwise she wouldn't have separate monitors. She'd probably just have one.

And eventually we'll get there, like the airline you just described. You know, our planes today are all flying themselves, right, essentially. But I want to just challenge something, and this is what Jo said. She said it's a platform. To me, edge is an architectural decision, just like the cloud is an architectural decision. To me, is it – are we cloud washing by saying that this is a decision that we're going to make for a style of computing? To me, it's a style of computing that people use to make sure that their data is processed closer.

Am I right or am I wrong? So let's – I love where you're going with that, Tina, and I think the next question that we have for Mark will kind of tee up this deeper discussion of edge washing versus not edge washing versus does it really matter. You know, I came up with this convoluted example of someone having a manufacturing piece of equipment and connected to a Tandy 1000 because 30 years ago that was cutting edge, and now they've built processes around that to give them a competitive edge.

Is that the edge? So when – what I want to ask Mark, who's doing a really interesting thing in distributed data centers, et cetera, where is the edge because your business model kind of – you know, it kind of floats in between. This looks like the edge, but it also looks nothing like what we just saw in this tractor example. Right. Yeah, so, I mean, this is a problem in the space, absolutely, you know, as Joe pointed out at the beginning of the call that, you know, even when I talk about edge, what I'm usually euphemistically referring to as the edge is an opportunistic environment for deployment of applications that benefit from being and processing and doing analytics at or near where the customer is actually using the environment or an automated system is using the environment, right?

And so when I think of edge, I think of a deployment model for applications. I think of an architectural model for solving for remote locations. I think of all of it. But generically speaking, you know, when I think of what the tractor was doing, I see the tractor as mobile edge. And what was interesting about that mobile edge was that it was actually to a question that I get often asked and, in fact, debated with several times with Sarbjeet is how much edge will rely or might rely on cloud.

And in this particular model, it wasn't so much that this mobile edge relied on cloud, but that if we were really paying attention, we would have noticed that when she dropped seed, they recorded that data of how much seed dropped where, et cetera, et cetera. That data was put up in the cloud because they're planting seed. Immediate data is not important at that point. What is important is later on when they harvest from that same row, from that same batch of seed, they can use cloud analytics to determine what the harvest was based on those seeds from six months ago, whenever it was they planted.

So this is actually a perfect example of IoT designed around a relatively complex and not user-friendly mobile edge that is also semi-reliant, or I wouldn't say reliant, but benefits from connectivity and use of cloud analytics. And at some point, could all of that stuff be just at the edge? Yes, it could. But what this doesn't take into account in this particular model of edge is it doesn't take into account the ability to have portable workloads, as in I'm flying across the country in a 300-mile-an-hour bullet train, and can my workloads, can my profile follow me at latency, regardless of where I am, while I'm traveling at 300 miles an hour?

Can it continue to follow me even if I'm outside the range of my normally preferred edge provider? These are the parts of edge and edge development over time that offer considerably more complexity, but I think we could go on for hours about the potential workload opportunities and business model opportunities that will be created on that footprint. I was just going to say, are you talking about an edge gateway then at that point? Well, to some degree. I mean, when I talk about edge and I speak about a gateway, and this is something that Rob and I have talked about at length, and Keith and I may have talked about it, maybe even Sarjeet and Joe, I'm not sure.

Tina, you and I, unfortunately, haven't had enough time to converse, but generically speaking, at some point, for some percentage of edge, and I think it actually could be the dominant overall individual implementation of edge, is that edge becomes the equivalent of a marketplace. Now, it could be 5, 10, 15, 20 different marketplaces, or it could be a few, but the idea would be that Keith and I could develop an app over the weekend or over the course of six months with 20 people, but because we could deploy that app as if it were being deployed to the iPhone store but being deployed to the edge, and we could get so many eyeballs on it that even if we only made a penny per person, we could still make money on that app, which is basically the monetary and commercial model for putting a new app in the Android store or the iPhone store.

So, Joe, you've had some defined work around this concept of the network. Help us understand a little bit more about this concept of the, you know, kind of where the cloud network and the edge network, at least considerations around where they meet and things we should think about. Well, actually, I'd like to talk to Rob about this because I'd like to see what he thinks. I mean, he's steeped in cloud just like I am, but in my head I see them as disparate architectures, right, distinct architectures, and that the architectures can communicate with one another, but they are still distinct architectures, and I think part of the reason that they're distinct architectures is, back to your initial question, Keith, the driver is actionable data, right?

So we want to have that actionable data closer to the source where it's being produced or consumed, and beyond that actionable data, we've got all these costs that are baked into cloud. Look at how much egress costs today. That's a killer. People go and look at their egress costs and go, holy, holy tamales, what the hell. I'm doing a cloud study now, and it's sponsored, and I have a fixed expense budget, and part of that budget is cloud services, and I'm on the team constantly.

Like, please, please think about egress. I don't want to wake up to see a $2,700 egress charge the next day. Or storage, right, or storage, right? So, you know, all of a sudden think about what's going to happen with IoT or Edge. You're going to have this explosion of devices that all need to talk, right, and all need to store data and all need to communicate. So what you've got going on in your, you think cloud cost control is a problem?

Holy tamales. Look at what Edge cost control is going to be. So, Rob, I want to ask you, do you, in your head, do you see these as ideally two distinct separate environments from an architecture perspective? That's an excellent question, and the short answer is yes, but it's a lot more nuanced because I think that a lot of the cloud development paradigms and operational techniques and the way we're operating cloud, we're not going to invent totally new ways to pipeline application development and deliver things, right?

Is Kubernetes the right fit for Edge? Probably not, but it will be the way we deploy applications on the Edge because that's what we've been training people to do. I think what you're saying is 100% online, and people need to understand the core design premise of the cloud, and see, I said premise the right way in this case. The core premise of the cloud. You hit a virtual donut. That was perfect. Is that. You're irregardless, Rob. No, that's right.

Irregardless. Irregardless. Irregardless or irregardlessly? I completely derailed everybody. Oh, come on. The core premise of the cloud is that the network doesn't matter. It's completely elastic. You get as much as you want. You have to pay for it, Joe. I think that's an important consideration. And you can put it anywhere, and it really doesn't matter, right? The cloud is supposed to be this, like, just send it up there. The reason it's the cloud is I don't care what it is or how it is.

It's just there, and I can use it. And the edge is a totally different paradigm. It does matter where it is. It does matter that it stays local, right? You don't want to communicate to the device, you know, this is the problem with that tractor. If they want to change the way the seeds are getting laid down in the field, they probably have to go up to the cloud, talk laterally to the system that's controlling the tractor speed, and back down to the system.

And that works in this narrow case, the OT case, where we've cobbled everything together. It doesn't work if we want new people to show up with applications or to optimize it or to get really fine-tuned in how these things go. And so I think that we're really holding ourselves back when we try to just say, oh, it's going to be the cloud. And in some ways we're using the cloud as a crutch to solve these problems instead of saying, okay, I need open APIs so I can exchange between systems or I need to create a local data center infrastructure so I have a local repository for the tractor.

I want to get Sarbjeet in this conversation. Sarbjeet, you're an architect. You've dealt in platforms and building platforms. You've also dealt with product teams and building products. Is the edge, as we just saw in that John Deere use case, is the edge something that traditional IT players can productize? I see platforms from HPE, Dell, et cetera. I see these edge platforms, but when I just looked at that tractor example, I'm thinking, man, they're so far away from what OT does and what they sell may be what OT needs, but that gap is huge.

Hi, guys. Thanks for promoting me to be your panelist. Yeah, I'm glad to be here. I think the main thing is I think you're trying to get to is that there's application and there's data, right? And you cannot collect data or distribute data without having applications in place, right? And how do we cook those applications? I can use a food analogy like how you formulate those kitchens, if you will. That's where we cook data, if you will, and we produce data and all that stuff and consume data.

I think that matters a lot. What that means is I think cloud will be used for the distribution of applications. So I usually say that cloud will be the control plane for the edge. Edge will be more like a data plane. When I say that, there are like – let me qualify that. There will be more applications sitting at the edge, but they will be pushed from the cloud. So the distribution of the applications and building of those, right, has to be central to keep the operational cost minimal, creational and operational cost.

I think that's why – that's where the lure of the cloud is, that from CapEx to OpEx, that's one thing. But having that central control over things, like once you update one thing, everybody gets that. Everybody gets those applications through their devices. In the edge case, that will happen, I think. I think cloud will play a huge role. And I actually – you were talking about terminology, right, why we came up with the new terminology, edge, when we have other terminologies to describe the same thing.

We have been doing edge for 20, 30 years. In a way, the CDN was edge, right? Right. It was. So we were using edge for distribution of data, not collection of data. We were collecting the data, by the way, through CDN also. , and when you vote on these voice shows and all that, millions of people vote within a few seconds for a candidate, right, and they collect the data through edge. I mean, there's no other way to collect that much data.

So I think we have been – we have gone from, like, distribution of data to collection of data, and that's the journey from CDN to edge, I believe. I love where you're going with this. You weren't in any of our prep meetings. We promoted you last minute. But you kind of set Rob up for the question I wanted to ask Rob, which is of the tools that we have now, when we look at the cloud tools, you know, we look at all the different variations of on-premises cloud.

How does that stuff fit into the edge when we look at the big providers, Amazon, Google, Microsoft? Microsoft has – I mean, every one of these cloud providers recognizes that their data center footprint is going to have to move into the local, the physical environment, right? This is – there is a wave coming that, regardless of edge, computational power is being applied to everyday tasks in our physical presence. We're moving from computers being single-unit things like desktops into cloud where they were getting involved in every aspect of our life and connecting us together, to actually moving back into our environment and being part of essential services in how we operate in a connected way.

They're already there OT-wise. We're talking about connecting them in an IT way. And every one of the cloud providers recognizes that the explosion in the next wave is not going to be in the centralized data centers but in the environment. So every – they're all trying to get into this platform. And Sarge is exactly right. The delivery of the applications and software into that model is one of the biggest barriers for us being successful. I don't agree that it has to be centrally managed.

The challenge with centrally managed means that we're going to have, like we have today, where every vendor has designed their own way to push applications into the edge. So we're either going to move towards a big monolithic Amazon owns every device basically and the control and management of every device, which isn't – yeah, it's not the future that I'm signing up for. It seems a little scary to me. So, you know, I'd be hopeful that we can actually see more decentralized management and common APIs and having people able to – That's certainly what – It's a hybrid world.

It's a hybrid world right now. I think people want a hybrid world. But they're lighting up the world, too. So, like, no mistake, they're going to go after world domination. If they can do it, they're going to try. So one of the things I'm super interested in is this concept of – I'm an infrastructure guy. I believe that if we build infrastructure, if we build roads, if we build highways, if we build data centers, et cetera, smart people are going to come and consume those things if we make it consumable.

That just – I'm just going to say bad civilization that we saw inside of the tractor. Really cool practically. But as an IT infrastructure guy, I put my IT infrastructure head on and I think about scaling that across dozens or thousands of farms and correlating the data and leveraging the scale of the app. Let's call the tractor the app. How do we bridge the gap between folks – everybody here builds infrastructure and enables infrastructure. How do we bridge the gap between building the infrastructure and getting to the OT guys?

I want to be greedy and add kind of a focused piece of this. Let's look at IT devices versus IT – I mean, IoT devices versus IoT infrastructure. Today, if I just wanted to collect data, if I wanted to go into a manufacturing facility and collect data off of the various OT devices, I'm speaking to, like, three or four different protocols. And building that infrastructure to even get it to the cloud is an extremely difficult gap. So these are the environments that, as IT infrastructure folks, we're selling into.

How do we translate what we do? And I guess the ultimate question I want you guys to tackle, how do we translate what we do into something the OT folks, the IoT and OT folks can understand and consume? I'll take it. I have an answer, too. Yeah, I mean, I think we might have a – I don't want to say misconception, Keith, but we might be focusing on the problem the wrong way in the sense that what we saw in the cab of that vehicle should be one application, but in reality was seven different applications that were being humanly correlated, right?

And so why is that important? Well, it's important because if what I just said were true, then there's less issue for someone like me or Rob or Joe in putting infrastructure in a data center somewhere that allows for people to build applications and deliver them. It's more about what are the capabilities for those folks to deliver applications to the right format on the right device in order to make it usable for the consumer. And so I think, you know, to Rob's point, and something that certainly I've been writing and talking about at length for the last couple of years, is that overall demand for Edge is likely to outstrip public cloud demand in the next five or six years.

And that's an amazing number all by itself when you consider that public cloud is made up of somewhere between 35 and 50 million servers today, right, just in the top five or six brands. So that's an amazing stat. So from that perspective, we have to realize that whether or not there needed to be a computer on a light pole or a computer in a data center near where that John Deere was working in the farm right now is immaterial, is what we have to think about is what will we need when there are 100 or 1,000 of those John Deeres within a particular region or, you know, a million autonomous vehicles and people building services and other application capabilities to ride on top of those new services, what do we need to support from a compute and network standpoint then, right?

It's like a lot of folks that I talk to when, you know, the question that Rob posed or the point Rob posed in the chat earlier about the inverted nature of the data, something I've also written about, is that right now many of the people I talk to are thinking about edge and deployment and putting data back in the cloud similar to the way a cigarette smoker thinks about dropping their one cigarette butt. It's just one cigarette butt. Right. That's so good.

You and the quotes were done. That's good. That is one cigarette butt. That's good. What happens when 100 million people smoke cigarettes? Yeah. Right? That's a real problem from an edge standpoint. And I don't think, you know, we understand what the potential need for compute and storage at the edge will be, nor do we really understand how much additional networking we're going to need from a localization standpoint to make all that stuff effective. I want to make sure I capture a summarization of that, is that as infrastructure folks, we should be focused on making sure that the robust infrastructure is in place for this inverted traffic path, whatever it may be.

The app folks are going to do what the app folks are going to do. But from the infrastructure perspective, we need to be able to identify or reasonably predict with some level of magnitude how we're going to ingest some of this data, even if it may not go all the way up to the cloud to everyone's point, but locally and within that region of the world, whether it's 5G or whatever the technologies that support 5G, we need to have them. So Rob, I'll give it to you next.

Then Joe. Tina, go ahead. You're jumping in. I just want to remind you because this is near and dear to my heart and we'll talk about it on another panel, but don't forget the security. Thank you. If you think it's hard to lay out security in the cloud, wait till you do that on that inverted program that Mark's talking about. You are talking about an exponential problem that you've never, ever, ever even can conceive of. Can we zoom out a minute?

Because we're all digging in the dirt here and looking at the architecture, Sarjeet. Sarjeet, you've heard me say this before. Cloud is as much about technology as it is about a corporate preference. So IoT and Edge is happening somewhere over here out of the picture frame, right? Rob's laughing. The executives haven't come in yet and said, Hey, this is important. And oh, by the way, everybody needs to play together. Because you've got the IT folks not playing with the OT folks.

So traditional facilities, not talking to IT. OT is doing what they want to do. Forget security, Tina. That's not even happening in most places yet. Right? Yeah. But there's no executive sponsorship making this all come together. That's where I think we're missing because it's an immature technology. Pretty, pretty, pretty early with it. It's pretty wild west city. It's not even unless they're in certain verticals up on the executives radar yet. That's the problem. So, Joe, just so you know, you just you just.

Perform your short for when I quote this on Twitter, Twitter that whole frame would be the Joe Peterson short. Oh, no. Oh, no. Joe, I think you're entirely. I think the, I think the reckoning on cloud, IT controls in the cloud is, is yet to come. We're just walking into a weight. Yeah. All the stuff that the cloud people ran away from in IT have to come to cloud because it's really about controls, repeatability process and sustainability. The edge stuff gets walked away from because people think the blast radius is small.

And so they're like, oh, it's one tractor that might get hacked. I don't have to worry about blah, blah, blah. And so, so I think that the cloud is going to be, it's just a very attractive target and we're going to go there. The point that I was I was making based on sort of this broader conversation is, is the heterogeneity of these environments is mind numbing. It's already the thing that right. One of the reasons why cloud is super attractive is if you move to cloud, then you're dealing with three vendors.

Right. Tina's point about hybrid is is very real and hybrid is really hard. Edge is super hard in part because nobody's buying nice, clean, expensive Dell, HP, Lenovo, you know, Cisco servers and switches to put in these tractors. They're buying, you know you're not even a nook. They're buying an embedded server computer that has to have a 10 year life cycle on it. And they're using protocols like I2C and Bluetooth and can and right. And but but here's the thing.

People have to get over. That's the right thing to do. We're not going to put Ethernet and fiber in the tractor. So I'm just going to have a long extension card. I'll have to push backwards. I have a ride lawnmower and I have a 10 gig switch connected to it. So, you know, watch out for the watch out for the driver. Yeah, well, you know, I want to share the conversation. We only have my thirty five minutes went out the window.

So we only have to speak. We only have six minutes and I wanted to shift the conversation to the business conversation from a vendor landscape. When you're telling a story, who are you telling that story to? Is it to OT IT or are you trying to sell tell it to the CEO? I think you're telling it to the CEO, but I don't think you're saying edge. I think you're saying digital transformation. OK, I think there's this whole wave that everybody's talking about.

Digital transformation, digital twin, digital this, digital that, and how you're going to transform your business. And I think there's a lot of edge in that. I really, really do, because a lot of these applications that we're seeing that are really making, I guess, disruption in these industries have this going on. And I would add on to what Tina said and something that I've said a few times now in other forums or formats is that, you know, first, I don't like, it seems like Tina doesn't like the word either.

I don't like the term digital transformation because we've been doing digital transformation since we plugged in the first network printer. And so if that's our success, then we're fucked. So what we're really doing is business transformation. And what business transformation is, is a better ability by leadership to leverage technology that's been available by and large for the last 15 or 20 years, right? When my leadership has told me in the past as an IT contributor or infrastructure developer, they've said, I want data in real time.

Not a single time in my entire history of delivering to business applications, not monitoring the data center or a broken app, but for business application data, not a single time in my career has that real-time data turned into real-time, anything even approaching real-time response from the business. So business transformation, for me, has lots of little benefits. And I'm not being sarcastic. Little benefits like efficiency in the production line and reducing error rates on robots and so on and so forth. All of that is real.

But what the real benefit is the DevOpsification of your organization so that you can respond to customers and include customers in new and unique ways. And to finalize on how Tina got us to this point is that I refer to the corporation as the body, as the human body, and Edge is the equivalent of our hands and arms. And so what's the importance of a hand and an arm? You hug somebody, you give somebody a shake. What comes through with that?

Warmth, connected, trust, strength. And those are the things that Edge can help deliver for the modern business as they go to compete to get access to the customer. So you're talking about customer experience, and maybe that's the conversation as opposed to digital transformation. And CX gets you out of the IT silo, right? It gets you talking to product. It gets you talking to marketing because they care about customer experience. So maybe that's the thing. Maybe the thing is to make it more relatable is to get out of the IT silo.

By the way, I don't even talk about digital transformation. All I talk about is how to fix the mess that they've created with digital transformation on the security side of things. Digital transformation remediation work. So, Rob, I'm sorry, but you've got to leave. You get two with the last two words, about a minute each. You know, what message? Because, Rob, you sell an Edge solution. What message are you taking to the business when it comes to outcomes? Oh, that's simple for us.

It's about autonomy. So self-management and control. So for us, our customers, and to me, this is where Edge is really powerful. It's really about coming back and saying you can actually run and manage infrastructure in a controllable way. And to me, these questions are driven by I have to do compute locally because I'm trying to apply these advanced techniques, but I need to do it as a systems, and I want to do it where I have control of my own destiny.

I don't want to keep vendor siloing one at a time, and I don't want to just send everything into the cloud and let somebody else manage it. And then I want to connect things together. And all three of those things translate into can I run my own infrastructure again? Can I make that – can we make that possible? And that to me is where Edge has been stuttering, frankly, where we keep saying use Edge. It's great. It's on premises and local, and you have control and autonomy.

And then we're like, and then we're going to tether you back into the cloud, and you hear the sad trombones go. And so I feel like we keep sort of having this vision of what we want to be able to do and how we want things to operate, and then we can't organize ourselves as an industry because we're so busy chasing Amazon, frankly. Sarbjeet, last word to you. You're muted. Let's back up a little bit. Like I'm a student of economics, and I happen to practice technology for the last 25 years.

Economics matters a lot, but let's put economics aside for just a second and then talk about just technology. And I think things will become a little clearer. If you put costs aside, right, egress costs and all that stuff, like you put aside, where will you do compute if you have a choice, centrally or on Edge? I think the answer always is centrally as much as you can, if the networks are strong and all that stuff. I think Edge should be consumed only when you need it, like the last resort, only when it's life-and-death situation, only when you're putting money aside, again, right, like when you're in the hospital, like your ventilator needs to send data to the central server because nurses are monitoring it, something like that, right, or self-driving car can bump into somebody else because V2X is happening there.

So I think Edge will be consumed, I believe, in that context, when it's life-and-death situation. That's how Edge will start, will take off. I think gradually it can get into other use cases, but I think we have to start there. Don't just do Edge because it's a sexy term or you can sell more boxes and stuff like that. I think it creates a lot more problems for you to manage in the field. Like why will you ship boxes when you can ship data?

I would stop there. So I really appreciate all of the panelists taking time out there, an immensely busy schedule. We're in the middle of analyst conference season, and each one of these influencers are being pulled in a thousand different ways. I appreciate you guys taking out the time to have this conversation around Edge computing. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. If you want to find out more about these fine folks and their offerings, you can visit the show notes.

Or if you were watching this live, you see that Laura Thurman is trying to reach out to you. Talk to you next. CTO Advisor. Thing. I don't know what to call this. Webinar. Security things. Yes. Security. Bye. Bye, everybody.